If you don’t listen to the SUMMIT Podcast yet, you’re definitely missing out on some incredible content! Hosted by marketing expert and CEO of Hamer Marketing Group Kyle Hamer, the show gives an inside look at all things marketing and sales, exploring the world of business life through the lens of everyday people doing extraordinary things.
Kyle and I met a few weeks ago to touch base, and immediately had a great conversation about Buyer Personas. Wanting to take that conversation to his audience, we connected again and had an absolutely brilliant chat about what marketers and businesses can do right now to start writing, and using, buyer personas in their marketing plans today.
Listen to our Buyer Persona Marketing discussion!
Want to listen to our discussion about improving your marketing by using buyer personas? Take a listen!
Want to see an example of a buyer persona now?
Earlier this year, I actually wrote a sample buyer persona so marketers like you could see more tactically what we’re talking about here.
Need help developing a buyer persona for your business? I’d love to help!
Feel free to shoot me a message using the form below.
Audio not your thing? You can also read the transcript here!
Intro: 0:00
Welcome to the summit. A podcast focused on bringing you the knowledge and insights for industry leaders. I'm your host, Kyle Hamer and I'm on a mission to help you exceed your potential. As a sales guy, turned marketer, I am passionate about building sustainable businesses. And if there's one thing I've learned in my 20 year career is that you won't find an overnight growth scheme, a shortcut to success, or a way to hack yourself to the top. Nope. Success is the by-product of hard work, great relationships and deep understanding done over and over. We're here to help you unlock that success with some secrets from other people. One conversation at a time
Kyle Hamer: 0:35
Hey, thanks for joining us today. I'm your host, Kyle Hemer . And today we're here with Matt seltzer. Matt, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Kyle. I appreciate it. Oh, I'm , I'm super excited to have this conversation for those of you who don't know. Matt. Matt is a lifelong marketer who started his career conducting market research for one of the most decorated ad agencies in the Western us. He won't tell us the name, but they're pretty big deal. Yeah . He continued to maintain a steady freelance research career while seamless , simultaneously pursuing direct marketing opportunities and also teaching marketing re marketing resources, no marketing courses. Yep . Mats skills are diverse, man. He's done a little bit as it relates to market research , um , delivering marketing projects, doing digital campaigns and is just a wealth of knowledge. Matt, we're super excited to have you here today. What did I miss?
Matt Seltzer: 1:24
Ah, no, you pretty much hit all of it. I played a bunch of musical instruments too, but that doesn't come up in marketing a lot. Really like the ukulele or what? What's your, what's your gene ? Oh, I've got a trombone, a trumpet right here and we're going to grab the recorder as well. So , uh, I got the gamut here. Well, as long as it's not as sousaphone , I think we're all right. Nope, no, sousaphones, that's fantastic.
Kyle Hamer: 1:46
Well, today we're going to talk about , um , market research, persona building and how you're doing it wrong. Most companies don't realize it, but they're doing it all wrong. Um, but before we get into that, Matt , give us just a little bit of the, you know, I touched on a few things briefly. What's your marketing career journey looked like up to this point. Yeah.
Matt Seltzer: 2:07
So real quick. So I started at an ad agency in college. I was an intern and had my foot in the door, was with the research team. Um, and actually it's because I knew 10 key . I was the only person who applied, who knew how to detect key . Um , but I fell in love with it. I thought it was okay. I'm just going to get my foot in the door with an ad agency. And I'm like, Oh, this research thing is awesome or learn about audiences. We're doing surveys, focus groups. I'm thinking I'm going to do this for the rest of my life. And then 2008 happened and everyone said, no, you're not doing this for the rest of your life because everyone's getting laid off. And I got laid off and I thought, okay, I'm going to go to another ad agency and keep doing research. And I'm out here in Las Vegas. And what I found out is there are literally no other ad agencies in the entire state of Nevada that do research. So did a bunch of other things that went in-house for a marketing team for awhile . I've done a few other ad agencies. I've worked on some startups and I've always really done that marketing , uh , the marketing management. Um, but I also love the research side. So it always pitched the ideas. Like let's do some surveys, let's do some focus groups , brand awareness. Um, and then for a few years I actually went in-house with , uh, the Las Vegas convention of visitors authority. So for anyone who doesn't know, that's what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Um, I got to work on that project for four years as their senior research analyst doing, just research and then a little over a year ago, I kind of went back to my thinking of, Oh , why don't all these ad agencies have a research team? And there's a lot of reasons why a lot of it has to do with revenue, the size and how people are building agencies. But the long end of the short of it is I thought, well, here's the thing that I can do very, very well. And now I own a consulting firm called S2 Research. And I partnered with ad agencies that don't do research and add another revenue stream for them.
Kyle Hamer: 3:45
That's pretty cool. Yeah . Today's today's topic is research, but it's really more personas as a by-product of research. Yep . Why, why does so many organizations feel like they have to have 800 personas? Like let's just start with that. Why, why is it it's like, I need to have a persona for everything. Sure.
Matt Seltzer: 4:04
So I'll start with why I love personas and will cause that cause that's a great problem that lot . I see a lot of places have, so we've, we've taken this time with research to say, let's take all our , uh, all of our customers. Every one of them let's figure out what is the average, right. You know, what was the average customer make per year? What is the average thing they're buying for? Um, and that's a great way to learn about your audience except the one thing. And I heard this recently, no one in your audience actually has 2.3 kids. So that's whatever, just get us to , but it's not actually who is the person when you really dive into it. And then you think about, think about any product in the world. And I should preface, anytime I talk about a hypothetical product, it's going to be a cheeseburger. So let's say you're selling cheeseburgers, right? Well, you can't just say the average person who buys my cheeseburger makes X amount of money per year has this many kids. You say, you got to think, why are they buying cheeseburgers? And so you might have, let's just take McDonald's. As an example, you might have moms and dads who were buying cheeseburgers for their kids. The reason they're buying, they're looking for price. They're looking for a quick meal. They're looking to get something, their kids aren't going to be upset about. That's their focus for buying that cheeseburger. So that's that persona right there. And then separately, you might have a college student. Who's just looking to save a few bucks and get a cheeseburger for under five bucks. Uh can't remember when it used to be under a dollar, that was the great deal, but uh , Oh yeah, everything's changed. But, but still, so you got someone who's, they're not, they obviously don't have kids. They're not focused on kids. They just want to get themselves bed without breaking the bank. Um, you got a million different reasons why someone would buy a cheeseburger. So those are personas. You're deciding what is the person? What is their motivation, et cetera. Now, like I said, not everyone. There is no one in your audience that has 2.3 kids and you think, okay, I've got my parents here. I've got my college students when people say well, but then there's maybe there's two types of college students . There's late night college student , who's buying a 2:00 AM their cheeseburger versus the guy who's buying at lunch. You think who's the parent. Well , does that parent have one kid or two? Do they have boys versus girls? And you start to think, well, let's just build more personas. And that's the problem that you , you just nailed that everyone says, well, I'm going to dive into every possible reason someone could buy a cheeseburger and I'm going to figure out who that person is. And there's a great saying that I heard from a movie years and years ago, it's says, is the juice worth the squeeze? And , and that right there is the solution to how many buyer personas should I have? You know, you could say, I'm going to talk to parents and I'm gonna sell them cheeseburgers because they need to eat. Their kids need to eat and they're focused on XYZ . That's probably as deep as you need to go. If I'm going to decide on a different marketing campaign for boys versus girls, as far as the children go, I'm going to do better marketing. I'll be the first to tell you it's going to be better, but was it better enough that you made more money than just doing the one persona? That's where you got to ask yourself, is the juice worth the squeeze. If I do this effort, am I going to get the returns on it ? And most of the time the answer is no. So it's , it's a fine line of, I don't want to just take an average of everyone. I don't want to dive down to every single consumer, but you gotta start to kind of find that middle ground of this is where it's beneficial to my marketing, to know the customer this deep. Okay.
Kyle Hamer: 7:06
Well, you know, it's it's so, so a couple of things there, one you're speaking my love language . I eat cheeseburgers like crazy. They, they might be my , uh, well , they might be my love for my wife is like, I'm really can't eat another cheeseburger.
Matt Seltzer: 7:19
All yours, honey. No, that's yeah.
Kyle Hamer: 7:23
Oh , a double double wait. What's that mean? That means I ordered one for her and one for me, she had a bite and I had to , But , uh , you know, I, you know, you think about, you think about how tangible that is. And I don't know if you've seen this yet, but my McDonald's just recently released their 20, 20 commercial in the UK for cheeseburgers. Okay. And this persona is targeted at teenage parents, teenage single single parents who are teenage of teenagers, teenagers who are distracted involved with things that are related electronics. And what they were targeting was reminding that the teen or reminding the child about the special part of the relationship through food now, to your point, man, they could have, they could have segmented this a thousand different ways than they could've done with two parents, one with one parents, but they went with what told the simplest story, created the right emotion to drive home. The point that chews through McDonald's meal, you can create something that's very nostalgic in our minds, the heart of what's going on during the holidays . Uh , if you haven't seen it, I strongly recommend you go watch it. I posted it . I posted it on my LinkedIn. Um, one of my LinkedIn posts yesterday , um, the link to it. So it's , it's really easy to find.
Matt Seltzer: 8:43
I'll take a look. I actually have it pulled up here. So this will be good.
Kyle Hamer: 8:46
That's awesome. But from, from, from my perspective, one of the things that I think is , is interesting about the big guys in McDonald's your, your , your Pepsi's , these big consumer brands. They tend to actually have the resources to do all of this fractional multi-directional personas. And yet the people who get lost in the sauce are more, the mid-sized mid-market businesses where they're like, Oh my gosh, if I don't tell this exact story to everybody the right way, I'm going to lose out. Why do they think that companies struggle so much with that fear, with that? Um , you know, that focus.
Matt Seltzer: 9:24
So it's the unknown first off. Um, you, you nailed exactly why I had to build my business is I said that a lot of these ad agencies, and I shouldn't just say ad agencies, we're talking small to midsize marketing teams. Aren't doing research it's because one, it's not a direct revenue driver, at least not initially. So, I mean, I don't know if you've you've experienced, this has been my experience, but if you work in marketing 24 hours is not enough of the day. So December one . Yeah, exactly. And someone says, Oh, now I need you to do research on top of that. You go , no add on to that. The fact that research in the last 20 years, you know , if you want to dive into buyers and really figure out who is my persona, there's a lot of different tools on that . And a lot of them are complex. So here we got this expensive thing that's complex that no one has time to do, unless you're a giant company with an in house research team, it's probably getting lost with a wayside. Or, and this is to answer your question. The flip side of that is someone's heard a great speaker who says, you need buyer personas. You need to be doing this for your audience. And it's foreign to you. You've never really done this before. You've said, okay, here's 10 million, maybe not $1,000 , $10,000 in software. We got by and we're going to go use, I'm not saying you have to, but a lot of businesses go that route and they think I need the end, all be all cook and buyer persona. And to them, that means crap. I've got hope, grabs a fan of the show. Uh, but I've got dozens and dozens of different personas that I could be reaching here. And I got to build every single one of them out. And it just comes down to you're being thrust into a world that you're not spending every day. I mean, any facet of marketing, if you've never done PR for instance, and someone says, Hey, go pitch the media. Is that one, one reporter ? Or is it a thousand reporters? Both answers seem right. And again, it comes from you do it long enough. You start to figure this out. But if it's your first time, 10 time, even it's a , it's kind of a scary little ocean to, to navigate,
Kyle Hamer: 11:20
Oh my God. It, it, you know, having sat in the set in the C-suite where there were times when the team came to us and they're like, all right , we need to do press releases. I'd be like, I look at my team, I'd look at what we had and like, Hm , do what you do best outs , source the rest. Right? So we're automatically going, all right, who do we know that we can call? That's pitching the media because it's not, it's not a core competency of what we have. That's exactly it. But coming around back to the, to the research component, research is really intimidating. I think for folks, and I think it's, it's intimidating because man, you have firmographics, you have demographics, you have company, you know, company makeups. And all of a sudden you have all of these different things that go into understanding. How do you know where to start? How do you know where to begin for you when you're building these personas? What does it start with
Matt Seltzer: 12:11
There ? So every project I do in research starts with a brainstorm. Um , I'm a huge fan of taking a creative approach to what I do. So brainstorms always start with, I sit down with a client or if it's a marketing team, I sit down with that team because they know much, much more than I do. But more importantly, they know even more than they think they do. And that's where it really comes down. So we mentioned personas. One of the reasons you would ever do a persona is you're trying to figure out how can I convert someone into a customer? And that comes back to buying triggers. Why are they going to be your customer in the first place? And we backtracked from there, well, sitting down with a marketing team and saying, well, why are people buying from you now? Why do you think they should be buying? And that's going to start that research path. They're going to start to say, Oh, we sell we're luxury items. And so we're, we're targeting more of , uh , an audience with a higher affinity for luxury items. And you start to bring the piece through your brain. Okay. How do we get to that? How do we learn about that audience from there? I've got a , so there's, there's two different schools of thought in market research. There's quantitative, which has numbers. There's qualitative, which is the open-ended things like focus groups where you can't really measure, but you're getting a lot of information. So I've had an opportunity to work in both of those areas. Um, and I liked that because I come at it at all these projects from what is the best way to answer the questions we're going to try to answer. And that's how the buyer persona process works. Sometimes I'm conducting surveys. Sometimes I'm doing focus groups. Sometimes I'm doing zoom interviews with people all around the country. One-on-one but what I'm really trying to do is what's the best way to figure out going back to the beginning of that buying trigger, why does this person want to be my client's customer versus this person? What is it that the product or service that they're providing helps them do? And then from there you can start to backtrack into, okay, this is, this is, who's buying the cheeseburger for costs . This is buying the cheeseburger for taste or convenience. And you can build an entire person around that.
Kyle Hamer: 14:12
Well, I mean, what it leans into is, is what I've been running around touting for for years. So you stole my, the juice isn't worth the squeeze, or at least, you know, I thought it was mine. I probably borrowed it from somebody who'd heard it in the movie just made it my own. But the other thing that you , you seem to be touting, which, you know, at least for me feels self-gratifying and that I'm right. Is that , um, it's really about the question, right? So it's , it's about asking the right question and the power of the research, the power of what you begin to understand about the customer has less to do with what the outcome is or what the research tells you and is more about asking the right questions and the power of decisions you make, come from from the question. So how do I pick the right?
Matt Seltzer: 14:54
So that comes down to a lot of thinking through the process. So I'll give you a great example. I, I do a lot of surveys surveys. Aren't the end all be all, but they can kind of help you track out how are we going to ask question one, two, three? And I say this because I actually just finished a project where my client had some very specific questions that they wanted to ask and they want to ask them at certain places. And I take a lot of liberties when I write a survey, because I have to think through the process. Well, one of the things they were asking, if we had asked it in the very beginning where they wanted to ask it, I know exactly the answer they would have got . They would've gotten the w with the five-star review on every single piece, because of the way the question was worded, because it was the opening question. I have this great line that I've used for years, that surveys aren't report cards. We try to think of them as I just want to get the five-star rating. If I did that, we've done a good job. Well, I can write a survey right now and I guarantee I'll get you five stars, because it's how I word the question.
Kyle Hamer: 15:52
You mean, marketers are leading the witness and research programs. No way.
Matt Seltzer: 15:56
That's exactly the problem, which I'll be honest. If you're trying to publish reviews, do lead the leading questions, get people to answer the question that you're trying to get them to answer. But if you're trying to learn something from a tactical standpoint, you got to take that as far out of the equation as possible. You need to figure out how can I get the raw thought that they're thinking not what I want them to say. In fact, those are the times I want it want to hear what I don't want them to say, because that's something I can use. You know, a lot of people know a lot of industries don't take feedback real well. My entire industry it's raw feedback. Um, and it's hard. It's, it's tough to take some of this, especially I do a lot of customer experience measurement. A lot of customers aren't happy out there. And in fact, a lot of the ones who are willing to engage with the measurement are the unhappiest. But their feedback is probably the most beneficial that you get from a marketing standpoint. If they're saying your , your customer experience, if they're saying your , your checkout counter is rude, the people running the teller are rude. That's your last finished line for doing the marketing? The whole point of marketing is to make a sale. If your cashier is rude, you need to know about that. So you can fix it. That comes down to marketing, which comes back to market research. And it's about, I mean, I can ask a question that says on a one to five scale, how awesome was my cashier? Well, you're going to get a four or five by phrasing it like that. But if you say, tell us about your experience with the cashier, you're going to get the ones and you probably don't want the ones, but you need the ones.
Kyle Hamer: 17:22
Yeah . Just don't ask me about that. About the self checkout cashier. Cause sometimes I want to throw it out the way
Matt Seltzer: 17:26
I know . I understand that too. We're not alone there. Yeah .
Kyle Hamer: 17:31
Uh , you know, I think, I think, I think companies that deployed the self-checkouts and depleted their frontline retail, cashiers, they ask questions. Did market research the exact same way. You just said, how awesome was your experience with this checkout? And they're like, Oh look, we have a 97% approval rating. Yeah. But I'm going to tell you it was awesome. Cause it was terrible.
Matt Seltzer: 17:51
Right ? Yup . Oh God. You're absolutely right. And I'll tell you another side of that. There's this great, great old skid from a British show. And I feel like, man , I can't remember what it is, but I've watched it two weeks ago. Cause we were political season. And they said basically there was a series of polls done. This is 30 years ago in Britain, 40 years ago in Britain. But um, that says people are , are for selective service. Um, and they said, okay, we'll just go conduct a poll that says they aren't. And I said, well, how do you, how do you conduct a poll like that? They say, we ask them five or six questions before asking the selective service question that takes them down a path that says they're not actually they say , what do you think we should equip , uh, civilians with weapons? Well, of course not. Okay. Do you think we should do selective service will know and you, you take them down a path. Now I'm telling the statistics that I want to tell from that story. And there's a lot of marketing value from those kinds of questions. But if you're trying to be analytical about your own processes, if you're trying to learn the most about your own customers, you gotta take that thinking out of the equation.
Kyle Hamer: 18:52
Well, but I've got executives, Matt that are breathing down my neck and the executive swears up and down, this is exactly what's going on in the market. And we just need the research to prove it. How do you diffuse those types of situations? When from the top down, it doesn't matter what you seem to be coming back with. It was, you just didn't do the research, right?
Matt Seltzer: 19:11
So I love data and it's not all about data, but I love data. And I've worked with a lot of executives who don't like data. Um, and they have that, that exact thing. Hey, I need XYZ stats to prove my case. Now I've done a few of those kinds of projects and it's big and especially investment circles. They're trying to get people to understand. But if you want critical feedback again, you gotta, we , we need to go back to the basics. So to answer your question, what I found with a lot of executives who just aren't as into data as possible or as they could be, or at least they're not into it as much as I is, I build tools that help them get there. So I'll give you a great example. I do a lot of surveys and I take the data and I build dashboards from it. And for anyone who doesn't know what dashboard is, it's just like a graph or a series of graphs, except you can interact with it. You say, you know, here's, here's how many people come to your store on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And you click on Thursday and you can see all their preferences for just the third people who came on Thursdays. So I like building those kinds of tools because executives I've learned, even if they're not data people, they like to explore. They like to learn about their customers. So build tools like that, where they can go and cut the data themselves and click and interact, they start to see what we're trying to do. And then I can go back when someone says, Oh, I need you to prove something with statistics for me. And I said, well, that's not going to get you the definitive thing. Like we built last week. That thing that you Doug playing around with, or you could eat , you need to be able to get real information. So you have something that you can play with and learn from. Um, but it's not just about price . I mean, it's not just about dashboards. That's just one great example. Another thing that I love to do, I'm a huge talker. I love to give presentations and I'm a huge data geek and I'm fully aware that most people aren't. So when I give presentations, I give presentations all the time on data, but I very rarely talk about data. You mentioned a story a few minutes ago. I tell stories in my presentations, I communicate something very factual and real that an executive can understand. That's not about 25% of the audience said this and 75% it's I could say, Hey, if I talk to four customers, three are going to say this. And here's what that means. And they can wrap their heads around these stories about real customers. So I guess the, the answer to your question, how do you get people to understand the value of real raw information versus proving something statistics it's about learning to speak on their level. And so they can start to see the value in it from their own standpoint. And then it gets the gears turning . They get excited about it .
Kyle Hamer: 21:42
Looking in, I'm not going to, I'm going to put a little bit of words in your mouth, but it almost sounds like you built, you build dashboards in order to convince other people that they're going through the survey to open up their mind versus having them come in with a preconceived notions. A bit of the survey feeding that you were talking about before.
Matt Seltzer: 21:59
That's exactly right. I mean, again, it comes down to psychology. We're trying to get the into their brain as deep as we can. And again, I go back, you know, a lot of people think of surveys is just report cards. You know, it's one to five scale. How did I do? And the way I always say it, if you could go talk to a thousand of your customers and ask them any question in the world, the only thing you want to say is, did you give me an a or an F on my , uh , customer experience? I mean, you could learn anything. Why did you come in today? How much did you spend? What are you doing afterwards? And you could build a whole marketing plan based around their answers.
Kyle Hamer: 22:33
You have to ask an open-ended question versus a grading question,
Matt Seltzer: 22:36
Right. You know, there's a lot of different ways. You're, you're you're right. The thing I do like though about the , the grading questions and they're not all grading questions is you can measure, you know, if everyone gives, w let's say you ask the one to five question, but you don't ask it on a , how did we do it's was the conversation you had, what you expected on a one to five scale of totally expected to not at all what I expected. And you can start to map out what they're thinking from there, and you can measure. And I go back to my segment. So let's say you say, you know, did you come in here because you're trying to feed your kids? Or you're just trying to save five bucks on a cheeseburger. And then from there I could look at those two groups and say, well , the $5 cheeseburger people were rating the customer experience way higher than the kid's one. And if the kids segment, is it, why is their customer experience situation so negative? Is it that they're just too distracted by their kids even pay attention to the interaction and you can roadmap out from there, excuse me, a million different ways to make that work for your marketing. Because like I said, at the end of the day, that that final person is your finishing line to your marketing. Again, all of this stuff connects, but I love it because at the end of the day, we're just getting real information to help us do better marketing,
Kyle Hamer: 23:48
Better marketing. You know, it , it sounds to me, and again, I'm paraphrasing here, but what it sounds to me like is, is that , um, part of what helps you geek out is the fact that you get this raw data that helps you craft a meaningful story. And what I don't understand, this is why so many people's personas are missing the story they're missing the personality or the depth or the , um, business pain or personal pain that they have in their arc , because they're focused on the data. Why didn't , why, why do those, why do those seem to be so separate when organizations or companies are going through, Hey, I've got this CEO and here's his pain, he's got a knucklehead, that's , uh , a CTO and he's not hitting his revenue number. Let's go ask a bunch of questions to figure out what tool to sell him. Where's the story? Like, why, why do the personas miss those elements so often? Well,
Matt Seltzer: 24:48
First off, when we , a lot of businesses think of personas, they think of just demographics. And that comes back to classical thinking of you, go look on the census Bureau right now, and I can pull any data I want about any audience in any state. Um, and I can tell you from that, what percent are Hispanic? What percent are living in poverty, et cetera, we can build something from that. That's what we classically think. As I'm doing research, I'm looking at statistics. What a lot of marketing, especially now has taught us, especially in the content marketing world. Is it doesn't, it's not about who they are. It's how they think. And in fact, I'm quoting one of my favorite books, it's called the world's best buyer persona system. It was written by a friend of mine, but , uh, but he, that the entire process is based on that. You know, knowing who they are is important. You know, I've done a lot. I mentioned, you know what, shares Hispanic. I've done a lot of Hispanic marketing in my , my career. And you have to be authentic to that audience. And you have to speak in their language, not necessarily Spanish, but literally their, their language. What are they? What matters to them? But that's still just who they are. It's not how they think. So what content marketing for instance has taught us is people will actually go to Google now and ask a question. They don't say Miami people look up taco places near me, but they also look up where's the best taco. And that'll literally be a search phrase. And if you can answer that in your marketing, we know that we can build a content marketing strategy around that , except it doesn't stop at content marketing. That's marketing. You know, why is someone searching for the best taco? Well, they probably are hungry. And you can think through why are they hungry? Is it dinner time ? And we could build entire marketing campaign around what, someone who enjoys tacos. Okay. So it's not just burgers or tacos too . Um, but someone who enjoys tacos, who's looking for dinner and what, what, what matters to them? Is it price point? Is it flavor? Is it, is it reviews? Is it, are they an Instagram foodie and thinking through what are they going to achieve with this? You could build a story from that. Well, that's not data. A lot of the times, that's not data. That's asking a very, like you said, open-ended question of what matters to you, but the way to think of it. And I always, I even told some of this recently, a buyer persona is like, chapter one of your story, it's you setting up the character? What is their pain? What are they trying to achieve? Chapter two is your business. Chapter two is where you go and solve their problem for them. And again, someone might be buying cheeseburger taco because of price. They might be buying it for flavor or convenience or a million different, well, it's not, not a million, but a few very specific reasons. And those are different stories. Those are different. And then come back to marketing. If someone's based, you know , buying cheeseburgers based on price, 99, cent tacos, 99 cent cheeseburger, that's the top of your marketing message. Versus if someone's trying to feed their kids two happy meals plus dinner for the kids for under four 99, and we'll get you in and out in five minutes, you might want to have a copywriter fix that a little bit, but it's, the story is different and it starts with you . You're not going to write chapter two unless, you know, what are they trying to achieve? And chapter one,
Kyle Hamer: 27:58
You know , the thing that, the thing that I think is really interesting about that is is there a few times in history where when you get the story, right? It rewrites , um, it rewrites history in general. So I don't know . Are you familiar with Claude Hopkins? No. So I'm gonna , um , I'll drop a book for you to read, and it's a , it's like 120 to 200 pages, big type font, really fast reads called scientific advertising. Okay. And so anybody that's listening, go get it. It's like an $8 paperback copy. It's worth the read in the book. Claude Hopkins talks about how he took direct sales techniques and he applied them to advertising. And his big claim to fame was when , um, Pepperdine , uh, I believe that's the name of the toothpaste company in the 1940s and fifties. There was a big problem with dental health hygiene of the mouth was a big deal dentistry. Wasn't what it is today. People always had halitosis and he was like, well, I want to , he , he had a friend who came to him, they had this minty back , um, you know, baking soda toothpaste stuff. And he was like, advertise it for me. Well, Claude Hopkins, instead of getting his normal commission fee or whatever for , for writing the ad, he took a percentage of the, of the sales. Uh , he did it on a performance basis and he wrote an ad that basically said, when you fill the film on your teeth, Pepperdine is like, whatever you should, what you should reach for. Well, what are you done is he'd hit a reticular activator. He was doing the story that you're talking about. He had hit somebody when they were, you know, they were thinking about , um, their dental health or their, their breath, right after lunch. He knew when people were in and he is credited with changing the trajectory of the dental industry in the forties and fifties with one series of ads for a specific toothpaste. Now, did he do a lot of research maybe, but if he had gone to people and said on a scale of one to five, how bad do you think your breath is after, after lunch or on a scale of one to five? How much do you like your dentist? He probably wouldn't have found that moment, that reticular activator that made people think about his ad just by with the words that he wrote, what it, what it , um , drew up inside of them. And he told the story right. In 15 words or less, I think that, I think the actual headline was like eight words. So Amos , the story is fascinating to me, but it led to like 40 or $50 million. Think about that in the 1940s worth of sales for toothpaste, right? Like it was just an incredible it's explosive what it, what it meant for the industry, but he didn't have a persona. He wasn't targeting somebody specifically. He wasn't reverse engineering. He was just going after a specific pain, when you're doing research, do you ever find that there isn't really a bunch of different personas? It's just this really one common story point and one common pain that folks are struggling with and it's over and over. Like, you don't need to segment it .
Matt Seltzer: 31:12
That happens all the time. And that's actually the perfect scenario. You have one customer with a very specific problem that you can solve over and over and over. Um, and a lot of times that happens now, what you might find when you dive into that though, is the person behind, why are they solving that problem? Maybe there's two reasons for that. You know, again, I mentioned, I do market research for ad agencies. Sometimes that means I'm there . They, a lot of them are a lot of ad agencies get the value of that, but they don't know what they're going to do with that. So sometimes it's, let's talk about adding an additional revenue stream for you. Sometimes it's, let's just talk about making your existing marketing better. And that kind of goes back to our original of, they both have one problem. They're not doing research and they know they should be, but when you dive deeper, the why might be different. And the other part is there's a lot of people who fit into both categories. You know, I have the , I have this a lot where your audience is, let's call it 500,000 people and you've got two personas and they each have 300,000 people. And you say, well, that's 600,000. Well, no, it's not because a lot of people might worry about two different problems. And the great part is you put out marketing that says problem one and marketing. This is problem two. Well , those people in the overlap, those are your big targets because they're worried about both. Then you're speaking to them on both, both, both the, both wavelengths. That's what matters to them. So there's always going to be overlap. You know, I mentioned you might have a college student looking to save money and they have kids and they still need to feed them. And now they're caring about both messages with our cheeseburgers. Um, but a lot of the times it really is, especially when you have that great product market fit. You know, I have one product, I solve a very specific problem and there's X number of people in my audience that that's very real, that those are that's who you're talking to. Um, the other side of the coin is, and this goes really deep is you also have 10 million customers, however many customers you have, and everyone is a little bit different. You and I are both marketers, but we're different people. So again, it goes back. How far do you want to dive in to make your marketing even more relevant?
Kyle Hamer: 33:15
Well, in looking and I , I spend a lot of time in the MarTech space. There's 11,000 different marketing technologies. Yeah. I remember when, the days of when there were less than, you know , 300 and here we are, it's this explosive growth. What's interesting that you're talking about here though, is, is the , the fractionalization do I want to have , uh , be able to serve 10,000 different customers or do I want to be able to serve one customer 10,000 times? Do you see , uh, in the market research and when people are asking questions and building personas, do you get to see your glimpse into things that help with pricing or help with , um, how you should position or, or build the market so that it's , it's most effective in telling that story?
Matt Seltzer: 34:01
Yeah. And that's where it really gets exciting to me. So sometimes price is something we deal with. It's , that's less of a pain point then I always, I'm always surprised. That's not the main trigger really comes down to, you know, what are people trying to achieve. Um, but what I love about that is you, we're constantly measuring. We're constantly learning. What is it that they're trying to achieve with our product? Um, and then optimizing on that. So, you know, we think about marketing as we , we, we find someone, we get them interested, we convert them and then eventually they , we make a sale and then we're done except no, we're not. Most of the time, again, let's go back to our cheeseburgers. You buy a cheeseburger at McDonald's, you have a great experience. You're going to go back. But note that I said a great experience. I didn't say a great cheeseburger, every single component of the cheeseburger buying process from the wait time to the sit-down , which isn't so much a thing these days, but every piece of that determines whether or not someone's going to be a customer for life. And then eventually what we call a brand advocate. And you wanna make someone a brand advocate. That's the person who does your marketing for you. Cause they go around telling everyone how great the cheeseburger experience was. You got to be measuring every single component of that experience. You know, there's a great stat from a company called watermark. They did a study a few years ago. They looked at about 10 years of NASDAQ data. And they basically looked at every company on the NASDAQ and said, yes or no. Do you have a customer experience plan? Are you measuring it? Are you doing something with it? And the companies that said yes over the NASDAQ by about 40 points over those 10 years. And what that story tells us is that these are companies that are taking into account. What does that final interaction look like? What is the entire marketing bubble look like? Because I know once I've made an exchange with my customer, I've given them a product they've given me money. I want them to come back and how do I get them to come back while I make that first experience awesome. And the next experience, even more awesome. And all of that comes down to paying attention and getting information and doing something with that information.
Kyle Hamer: 36:10
It well, it, it, to me, it begs the question. How do you determine where to start in? Do you start with the problem? Do you start with the story? Do you start with the demographics? Like how do you, how do you begin to deconstruct that question? That you're trying to answer the story. You're trying to tell in a way that makes it compelling or in a way in which it helps you understand it so that you can make it compelling. So what am I
Matt Seltzer: 36:40
Favorite things to do is observe, and that's not the only way to do market research, but it's one of my favorite ways. Let's say you have a storefront and you just sit in the corner and watch people and see where people are waiting. See where people are looking upset or frustrated. And we constantly optimize from that.
Kyle Hamer: 36:55
So from there
Matt Seltzer: 36:58
Exploring, but really step one is, well, let me back up. I have a great, I've had a lot of great business advisors in my life, but one of them said, let's say you want to grow your revenue by 20% in a year. Well, that's a , that's a tough challenge, but let's say he says instead, okay, let's say you want to increase your lead generation by 5%. Well, 5% jump into lead gen. That's not that huge. We could, we could focus on that. And then let's say, you want to say, I want to convert 5% more leads. So same thing you're talking. If you're talking to a hundred people and you convert 5% of them or five of them, now you want to convert 10 of them. Again, these are reasonable numbers that you can improve on, but by improving leads by 5% and improving conversion by 5%, you've multiplied how effective you are. And you're lot . It's a lot easier to do than 20% growth over a year. So it's the same thing here. Let's say we just sit in our storefront and watch customers. And we realized we've got long lines and we say, okay, that's I already can make some assessment , some judgment calls from what long lines represent people are there. They're thinking we're a, time-waster they're thinking, you know, et cetera. When we think, how can we just improve that by 5%, make our lines 5% less law . Maybe it's opening another register. Maybe it's improving the sales process. Maybe it's getting a scanner app. So people can just buy things on their phone rather than even getting that out of there. But you improve customer experience right there by 5%. And then you can do something else. Or you can measure that and say, okay, what did 5% in increasing are getting people in and out time? What did that get us? Did it get us more customers in the door? Did it get repeat business? And then you can keep diving into that. Well, for peak business went up from making that and repeat, repeat business, got us a 20% growth. How can we further repeat business? So it all comes down to exploring and , and a lot of experimenting , um , which is really where I get excited about this stuff. You know, the digital marketing world, for instance, they've digital marketing has really tapped into market research. We can do AB testing. So let's say you're sending out an email and you're gonna send it to 10,000 people. But before you do that, you're going to send a hundred to this group and a hundred of this group, and they're gonna have different subject lines. And the one with a better subject line, that's going to go to the full 10,000 well that's market research. We can do those same kinds of experiments on, did our lines get shorter? Did our prices, did we sell more? If we stopped charging 99 cents and they ended on a zero instead, did we? There's a million experiments you could do, but all of those are market research. And then the only thing where I say before you start doing experiments, take the time to make some hypotheses , observing, talking to people, just sitting down with customers and asking questions. So your experiments are at least informed by something your customer has said or done. You're not just testing for the sake of testing,
Kyle Hamer: 39:46
Not just making a bunch of stuff up.
Matt Seltzer: 39:48
You can. It's fun. I wouldn't recommend it, but you know, you can, and there's some cool ideas that have come from that.
Kyle Hamer: 39:54
So have you, what, what you're talking about to me, and again, I'm looking for things that I've experienced in my life to try and try and draw parallels to , are you familiar with what a KA Kaizen event is? No.
Matt Seltzer: 40:06
God , I feel like I'm under the, under the gun today. No, I don't know any of that .
Kyle Hamer: 40:09
Oh no. Well this is this. Okay. And the, and the best way to explain this as in story form. So forgive me here is a moment that we talk about this, but a Kaizen event is an event inside of the ocean Conway . And I know I'm saying that wrong, but it's a lean six Sigma thinking methodology, a way of identifying or optimizing processes and improving things inside of an organization. Think AB marketing on steroids and the, this story that, that was the way that somebody explained a Kaizen event to me is, is think of Kaizen as the five why's . Okay. And , uh, the Washington, the , the story goes like this. Um, I think it was like 10 years ago. The Washington monument in DC had a huge problem with the government was spending over a million dollars a year, just pressure washing it in order to keep it clean. Okay. And somebody said, why are we spending a million dollars a year to pressure wash this, this , um, this monument, the pressure washing it erodes it it's, it's hard on it. We're having to spend extra things on restoration to keep it up. Like, why are we spending all of this money? So the first question is , is why, well, why it was constantly getting covered in pigeon droppings. And people are like, well, why is he getting covered in pigeon droppings while? Because it was a place where pigeons gathered. So the first question is, is why are we spending all this? The second question is , is why is it covered in pigeon droppings? The third question they said was, why are these pigeons all congregating here? And we're not seeing this at the Lincoln or new these other particular places. They said, Oh, well, there's this special kind of spider that's over here in this area. The question, then the question were forces will, why is this spider here? Why is it that we have these particular spiders? Well, the reason that these spiders are here is because , um, there , this particular, the flies are congregating around the monument. Well, why are we have the flies congregating around the monument because of the color of light that you're using. And so over a five week period in five questions asked the, they were able to identify that why the, it was costing a million dollars a year had to do with, they were using the wrong light bulbs to light the monument at night. And when you, when you take a step back and you look at that, it was a couple hundred dollars fix to save them a million dollars a year. So the Kaizen event is asking why, asking why, asking? Why asking? Why can you give me an example? And I know it just told you this, but can you give me an example through research that you've done or people that you've worked with, where taking the research a bit further in the persona health , tell a better story and identify the real why and saw a positive outcome on the other end.
Matt Seltzer: 43:00
Sure. I'll actually tell you one of my favorite case studies. It's not one of mine. In fact, I wish it was one of mine, but I tell it all the time. So milk you go back to the late eighties and we , you , we used to see advertisements for milk, where you would literally watch someone run a marathon they're soaked in sweat and they go and drink a jug of milk, right? Which I've ran. I used to run a different life now. And the last thing I ever wanted when I ran was milk. I mean, it just, it sits heavy in your stomach, but we had all of these ads that said milk. It does a body. Good. And I know we, we got to those ads because we asked people, why do you drink milk? What's what's in it for you? And people said, well , it's healthy. Of course, you know, if I want to get stronger, I need to drink milk. If I want a million reasons, but milk is healthy. And we give that information to a team of copywriters and they turn that into milk. It does a body good. But the problem is no one buys milk because it's healthy . We asked the question, why do you drink milk? And that's a totally different question. And why do you buy milk? So let's back that up. Why do you buy now ? And this is exactly what happened in the early nineties. Um , a team went in, interviewed many, many people and they said, why do you buy milk and milk? Actually, there's, there's three reasons that people buy milk. One is that everyone grew up with milk. They're there . It's always in the fridge and they're expected to have milk. So why do you buy milk? I'm supposed to, I'm supposed to have it in my fridge too . Why you buy milk? Well, if you're at the store, you see milk, you say, do I have milk? Most people have no clue. If they have enough milk, whether or not they do. It's just , I don't know. Let me spend the threefold . Oh yeah. And then milk comes with a bonus on it of even if you have milk, I have no clue if it's good, which no one knows if their milk is good. So just in case you buy the milk. So why are you buying milk? I'm supposed to have it. I don't know if I even have enough. And if I do, I have no clue if it's turned into cheese. So just in case, I'm going to buy milk and now that's a totally different reason. Why are we buying? And your hand, I need milk. I'm supposed to have it. I'm not sure if it's good. You hand that to a team of copywriters. And they turn that into the question, got milk, which to this day is one of the, arguably the number one ad campaign in history. I've heard a couple of that , put it in the top three, but it comes down to why you're going back. It doesn't matter why people are drinking it. That was the original thing. I know what people are drinking. It's healthy. That's great. But I can't turn that into dollars. And at the end of the day, that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to convert people to make it a marketing decision and just asking someone, Hey, do you have milk? You've got milk. That is a question that turned into copy, which ironically is a , is a question. And it's the essence of why someone is buying. And that's what we're really trying to do. We're trying to get someone to buy or to make a , do an action. And that comes down to very specific copy that pertains to various specific need States.
Kyle Hamer: 45:55
Oh my God, this, this, so you bringing milk up means that you absolutely now have to read scientific advertising because they touch on the department of agriculture's kickoff campaign and what it meant to the USDA for the milk. Like when they, when dairy dairy farmers were about to go extinct or about to lose their shirt, the USDA kicked off a campaign. So this the pre-story to your gut milk, which is where did that demand originally come from? Oh, I'm
Matt Seltzer: 46:22
Going to have to take a look at this book. Now this is my kind of book.
Kyle Hamer: 46:26
And it's a , it's a short, fast read . That's the part that I love the most about it.
Matt Seltzer: 46:29
Yeah. There's a lot of those good kinds of books now. And then you just get ideas. You get to share some stories with people. I'm going to take a look at this .
Kyle Hamer: 46:36
So if, if, if I'm a marketer or a business owner, even an agency owner, and I'm listening to this and I'm like, okay, you guys are droning on and on about advertising in this persona and that why or what would be the benefit from an ROI? Like how can you financially impact me by asking the right question or doing personas right. Or doing this market research. What's the actual brass taxed . How do you explain that to folks? Yeah.
Matt Seltzer: 47:04
So when we think of marketing, well, first off, when we think of marketing, a lot of people just think advertising. Um, and I can tell you any business on this planet can win in the advertising game with enough money. That's the short end of it. If you have a big enough advertising budget, you're gonna , you're gonna win. That. Doesn't help any business that doesn't have that huge advertising budget. And then let's expand that to marketing across the gamut. So we're talking digital, we're talking direct marketing, we're talking public relations. And if you don't have that great budget, that unlimited budget, you need to be strategic, right? So we used to talk about, you need to talk to someone three times before they make a decision. Then it was seven, then it was 11. And now I've heard that it's countless because everyone's hearing so many messages that you can't make a decision.
Kyle Hamer: 47:53
I heard it was 19 yesterday, yesterday. I heard somebody done a note, a social media research that you need to see a message 19 times before they make a buying decision. I was like, Oh dear God, you're going to run out of money before you ever actually get the mind share .
Matt Seltzer: 48:06
That's exactly right. The problem with that thinking, I think is that a lot of that 19 is the spaghetti at the wall method. You know, they're, they're putting the whole message out there. They say, okay, 19. So I need, Oh , let's say they see one out of every three of my billboards. So I need to put up 60 billboards and boom they'll, you know , get to it. Um, and then you throw on some digital marketing in there, et cetera, but we live in a time period where you could actually just look on Google, just on Google and just on Facebook and say, I'm just going to show my very influential ad to someone who has the problem that I'm trying to solve. Well, now you're, you're maximizing your dollars. Maybe you're going to spend more per impression than that bill hoard would. But that impression is only to someone who cares about the thing that you're doing. So it's about targeting. It's about hyper-focused. Um, it's not about sending out a million emails. It's about sending out 10 emails to 10 people who care, and that goes back to what do they care about? Well , I need to figure that out the research that goes back to the buyer persona, and then really we talked earlier about how do you have, what happens if you have three, five, 10 buyer personas, we'll go back to what are the three, five, 10 things that people care about? And then you can turn those into marketing funnels. You can turn them into a digital campaign with some PR around it as well. Um, you could build specific language into your emails that speak to what worries about them. Again, if they're focused on price, all your emails, talk about price incentives. If they're worried about efficiency or whatever the heck your , your business solves for them, focus on that in your language. And again, I mean, we live in this time, like HubSpot, HubSpot blows my mind right now. And there's a million tools like HubSpot. But what I love about it is I know that there's three or four different reasons. Someone comes to my website looking for market research. And from that point forward, they're going to receive a series of emails over the next six, 12 months. They're going to get one to two a week that tells their story. And it's different than the guy who has a different story. They're going to get specific language. They're going to get specific content that pertains to what they're concerned about. Because if they're not worried about price, they just want to do better marketing for their clients. All the emails I send them in the world about price. Isn't going to move them. It comes back to, again, it's not who they are. It's how they think,
Kyle Hamer: 50:24
You know, it would , it would , it sounds like to me, and I think I heard, I, you say it a little bit is , is that marketing is becoming more and more.
Matt Seltzer: 50:31
Oh yeah . Yeah .
Kyle Hamer: 50:33
The people that visit your marketing things don't care how much, you know, until they know how much you care. And it sounds to me like the language of caring is understanding who they are, where they're at and
Matt Seltzer: 50:43
What's important to them. Oh, you nailed it. And I'll tell you that line between sales and marketing, it's, it's so blurred now that you can't even see it anymore. And , and I love that because it used to be that marketing does X and then we hand the ball to sales and they take it from there. And instead, I think it's, we're all in the business of slowly converting and building trust.
Kyle Hamer: 51:09
I could not agree more. And , and anybody who listens to my show on a regular basis, the homies say that line between sales and marketing, marketing needs to understand how people sell and how people buy much more apropos than they have in the past. Because anytime you're engaging with somebody, if you can get their head nodding, yes, you're actually doing a sales process. Things that were relied upon salespeople years ago, whether it was somebody selling an elixir on a corner or somebody coming in to introduce , um, stoves, what was the benefit of a refrigerator into a home, right? There's an educational component where the , the buyer goes, Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Right. They start saying yes, far before they ever hand over the checkbook and in today's world, they want to say yes, a bunch more and feel like they're understanding what's going on before they ever, ever, ever want to meet somebody to collect their dollars and cents . Like, it's just, just where we are. I think as a, as a society of information and, and this digital age that we're in,
Matt Seltzer: 52:09
It's, it's pretty darn cool how personalized we can get it. And that's, again, that's the difference between marketing and sales, except there isn't a difference anymore. Um, you know , one of my favorite sales books I read years and years ago, there's a story in it about an insurance salesman. And he used to go into, into people's homes. I mean, that was his job and he'd get them to fill out paperwork. And what his trick was is while they were filling up paperwork, he would say, Oh shoot, I forgot the , uh, the pamphlet, the special pamphlet. I left it in my car. You guys keep filling up the paperwork. I'm going to go to my car and I'll come right back with it. And so we would leave. You get the pamphlet, you'd come back through the front door, didn't knock or anything, just walk right in because they know he's coming. And now he's got the pamphlet and they did this every single time. He intentionally would forget the pamphlet and someone asked him why. And he goes, well, who do you? You don't let salespeople leave and then walk right back in. But you let your friends do that. So what I'm doing here is creating that mental trigger that, well , I walked into their house. I told them I was going to they're filling out paperwork. It makes sense for me to walk into that house. But by creating that I've created in them, I've flipped a switch that, Oh, I'm more trusting than a salesperson. Well, flip the script on that. Now we have, let's take Amazon. For instance, Amazon sends me push on my phone all day . Well, that's the same thing. Why I'm not going to let any old app just send me notifications all day. But for some reason, I've let Amazon do it. And they send me notifications. I'm letting them talk to me in my life. And they're building trust with me and I'm building trust with them. And it's taking that exact same thought process and putting it into marketing.
Kyle Hamer: 53:46
Yeah. I don't like you for putting that up, but you're absolutely correct. Here's why I don't like it. I've been railing against the , uh, the direct messages of people reaching out, you know, cold emails, complete spam. I understand there's a place for outbound marketing. There's a place for warm introductions and creating a relationship. Get all of that. I can't stay in the cold span. And somebody came to me the other day and said, well , what do you think about SMS marketing? I'm like, it'll never take off because that's the last place of my life. That's protected. But I think I might be wrong because Amazon, I get texts every day from Amazon. They come in regularly. Oh, we delivered this. Oh, this was just shipped over this. Oh, this Oh, this. And it's like, that's slowly deteriorating. The barrier that I have of the intimacy for that particular place. That last line of communication defense, if you will. Yep .
Matt Seltzer: 54:38
And slowly you're right. It's if it happened all at once, we we'd we'd fight. But as long as it slowly integrates itself, you, I don't know. You almost become used to it. It's this is an expectation. I, there's a few obsessions that I have in this world that all revolver on Amazon. And when I get a notification, now it's not a nosy thing. It's a , it feels helpful. It's Hey, this thing you wanted is on sale. Thank you, Amazon. I thought what a nice thing to tell me.
Kyle Hamer: 55:05
Well, I'm going to tell you this , uh, the day that I wake up and I'm like, man, I didn't get any texts from Amazon. I'm going to have to go check myself into
Matt Seltzer: 55:13
It's coming. It really is.
Kyle Hamer: 55:14
I believe you. I don't necessarily like it, but I believe you have final thoughts, Matt , wrap us up, give us some final thoughts on great market research, great market experience, and you know, delivering personas that don't suck.
Matt Seltzer: 55:31
Yeah. So first of all, I'll push that book again. Then my friend wrote the world's best buyer persona system. Cause it really hones down a lot of my thinking. But remember, when, when we're talking about personas, you know, it's not about knowing every customer it's about knowing the ones that matter most of your bottom line and what does knowing them well, knowing means it's like if I was trying to tell my friend, Hey, you should try this cheeseburger. It's about being helpful. I'm going to tell him, I know he loves cheeseburgers for the taste and I'm going to sell him on the taste and I'm not trying to sell my friend. I'm just trying to be hopeful that he should try a new burger. Marketing's the exact same way. And if you want to do marketing, right, you need to know who your friend is in this case, it's your customer. And you're gonna use a written document, which we call a buyer persona to figure that out.
Kyle Hamer: 56:16
Oh man, well, you know what? This has been. This has been a lot of fun. We've kind of been a bit all over the place, but this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for your generosity and willingness to , to share with the audience and , and folks listening in today, Matt, if they want to reach out to you, how do they get ahold of you? How do they get involved in, in hookup with research that makes their personas kick versus suck?
Matt Seltzer: 56:39
Absolutely. Um, yeah, we don't want to suck eggs . Uh, so you can always find me. My website is S two research deck.com . So that's S number two, research.com. Uh , that's my tag on Twitter to at S two research. You could find me on LinkedIn. Um, but seriously, any way you can get in touch with me, everything's on my website. I love talking to people probably more than I should, as you can hear on this podcast. So , uh, by all means, reach out. I love talking to people about research.
Kyle Hamer: 57:05
That's great. Again, thank you so much for being a guest on the show.
Matt Seltzer: 57:08
Thank you, Kyle . I really do appreciate it . This is a good conversation. It was a lot of fun. Yeah.
Kyle Hamer: 57:14
Listening. Um, we , you can find Matt's contact information in the description of the podcast. Uh, you've been listening to me , uh, Kyle, Hemer your host, along with Matt seltzer , as we've been talking about everything, you know, about personas and marketing research is wrong. Um, and you know, while you're being wrong, go ahead and be right. Like subscribe, share, pass the word in, spread it. Thanks again for listening this week. And until next week, keep on being awesome.